Editor's note: As we mentioned in 'The Death Notice', our DI source material has been running dry. We'd already used the most interesting stuff; the remainder was largely 'administrivia'. We had nothing but rumors and random intelligence. But DI alumni knew our name by now, and they were interested. We'd been doing research all the way up into the Upper Penninsula.

So, our DI:D series will continue with the materials created with Hannibal's direct assitance, or even penned by Hannibal himself. The first of these efforts - an interview with the man himself - follows:

If you could go back and do it over again, what would you do differently?

In no particular order:

• I would fail a particular sergeant whose vote I abstained from in '82.


• I would explain my motivations and intentions better. I just assumed that everyone knew I was a team player.


• I would pay more attention to my personal appearance when in the field.


• I would buy a poncho liner.

Do you think Drummond Island was good for you?

Definitely. DI taught me things that I still use today. Certain things, like integrity, teamwork, loyalty, and taking responsibility never go out of style. The biggest thing it did for me was make me realize I was capable of much more than I had ever thought possible. That lesson saved my life in a survival situation a few years ago. I could have easily panicked and died, but I just calmly took in the situation and got myself out. Without DI, I might not have had such a strong belief in my ability to do extraordinary things. (I don't want to go into detail because the events and injury would clue too many people in to who I actually am)

If Drummond Island was good for you, why did you ask us not to use your real name for this interview? Surely you must be proud of the things you accomplished there.

I am, but I have had some bad experiences in CAP since then. Political stuff mostly. I have learned that it is a good idea to just stay low and avoid confrontation. The things I like to do - working with cadets, emergency services, flying - don't require me to involve myself in anything above the squadron level, and that is just fine with me. I'm not really cut out for executive leadership anyway. As Prince Charles (Another DI alumnus, not the British royal. -Ed) wrote all those years ago, I'm a squad leader at heart. I'll leave policy formulation to others who are more qualified and motivated.

There are also still people around who think Ranger is a bad word or something. To be fair, there are people who call themselves ranger who are complete twits. These are the ones who walk around like they don't have to follow orders or don't wear the uniform properly. At one point, I was that way with the uniform when in the field, although I never disobeyed orders. My only excuse is that I was a kid who was going through a very bad year. I paid for the reputation I earned that year for almost a decade.

When I see grown men acting like that, I can understand why some people would want to stamp out the memory of any ranger program. I would just as soon stay anonymous so I can keep serving in this great organization without any hassles.

When I read that, the memories came pouring back. "Death March" might be a stretch, but it was certainly one of the hardest things I've ever done. What I remember most about that day was the moment when I began to consider the possibility that I might not make it on the march. That was an entirely new experience for me. I was literally willing my legs to make each step. I had to concentrate just to breathe normally. My head felt like it was full of cotton. I got myself out of that funk and didn't quit, but that was a really bad day.

On the other hand, like so many other things, it was also a great day. Every great thing that has ever happened to me has also had an element of pain or hardship attached to it. That day on the Island was just one of them. Anything that is truly great in your life will be earned. Gifts are quickly forgotten, but the stuff you deserve is precious.

There doesn't seem to be much mention of senior members in the documents and letters we found. Even the stuff we felt was too boring or irrelevant had very little that referred to seniors. We found several letters and official documents that were signed by cadet officers. Where were your seniors, and how did it come to be that your cadet officers seemed to be so involved in planning and execution of the program?

We had very little senior involvement in the day-to-day operations of Group XII. Many of the squadron commanders were ex-military, but even most of them didn't wear uniforms unless there was a ceremony or something. We didn't expect them to. We were just grateful that they showed up every week so we could go out and do what we wanted. This was good and bad.

On the good side, we cadets didn't look to the seniors for guidance on most things. We looked to our cadet officers. Now some of these cadet officers were exceptional people to begin with - one is a nuclear physicist now, others went on active duty, some in special operations, but most were good because they had to be. If they had waited around for the seniors to make us good, we would have done nothing of any substance.

But, it was also a bad thing at times. The lack of adult supervision could have had dire results if things had gone wrong. The fact that no one ever got seriously hurt or killed is just short of a miracle. I would never allow my cadets to go off and do the stuff we did without me being there to ensure their safety. I only tag along and do as little as humanly possible, but I make sure I'm there just in case.

What amazes me is that we stood up and met the challenge. With the seniors only working with the very senior cadets, we were able to create an environment where positive leadership and teamwork became 'just the way things are'.

How do you suppose that came about?

Most of the credit has to go to our group commander. When he took command of the group, it was run like every other unit in the Wing. He created an environment where inter-squadron politics were not tolerated and where cadets were required to run their own program. I can't remember one time when the seniors came in and saved our activities. If we blew it, then we paid for it. We succeeded and failed by our own efforts.

The group commander ensured that we would be allowed to do what we wanted. He had picked the squadron commanders, and he could have them replaced. Of course, he had picked ex-military and other folk who understood teamwork and esprit des corps, so I don't remember that ever being a problem.

Then again, we cadets had so little contact with seniors that there could have been a senior war going on and we would never have known it. The only time we ever had them in a formation was if someone was getting their Mitchell or something. Everything else was taken care of by the cadet commander. If you were talking to a senior, you either did something very bad or very good. Except for Moral leadership, I really don't remember any classes that were taught by seniors. Well, there were also firearms safety and first aid classes taught by seniors on the Island, but that was not normal back at the squadron.

It wasn't a case of the squadron's belonging to the squadron commanders. It was The Colonel's Group. Anyone who didn't like it could leave. Of course, he had a wing commander who would back him up too, so he could be that way.

I don't remember there being a CAC. What we had instead was cadet commanders meeting and deciding what we were going to do.

Every cadet in the group was expected to work together. He created the Drummond Island program and the 77th so that the cadets could have a place to bond and train away from the day-to-day crap that happens at the squadron level. Being a part of the 77th became as important as being a part of your squadron.

Were the cadets different back then from the way they are now?

Not really. Cadets seem to be less willing to take risks and do things on their own, but that is the fault of our seniors, not the cadets. When I was a squadron commander 10 years ago, we did all kinds of cool stuff, and it was mostly cadet run. I expect my cadet officers to lead from the front (as does any DI graduate).

Often I will hear a cadet officer say something like "We'd like to have a bivouac, sir". I always say "OK". Then a month later I go back to that cadet officer and ask them, "So when is this bivouac gong to happen? You need to give us seniors some notice so we can arrange to be there." They, of course, have done nothing because today the seniors are supposed to do everything for their cadets. I'm not a den leader. If my cadets want to do something, THEY are the ones who are going to run it.

The really cool thing is seeing that same cadet officer after they have put together their own activity or program. Even if it was a "failure", they almost always get that "born again" gleam in their eye. I remember how intoxicating it was to be a teenage leader with almost complete freedom to do what I wanted. Sure, the responsibility is scary at first, but the freedom and "adultness" of commanding your own destiny far outweighs the drawbacks. I mean, where else can teens be given so much adult responsibility? Certainly not in any other youth organization I've been involved with over the years.

If it is as easy as you say, and the benefits so great for the cadet officer, then why don't more seniors do that?

Fear. I guess some people (especially cadets) would say the seniors don't trust or respect the cadets enough to let up on the leash, but I don't think that is the case most of the time. I think the majority of seniors are honestly afraid someone will get hurt or some parent will sue because little Johnny had to march GASP 10 miles with a pack on or had to sleep in the rain.

There also seems to be this belief that no activity should fail. I just don't understand this one. I've been lurking in your forums, and to quote several people, the cadet program is a leadership laboratory. Failed experiments aren't just part of the process. Often they are the key to ultimate success. How many scientists have gotten into trouble by skewing their data to make their work seem more successful than it is? When we step in every time a cadet leader is blowing it, we are skewing our results, and we are not creating young dynamic leaders for this country.

Had you seen the letter we called "The Consumate Squad Leader" before it ran on CadetStuff? How did you feel when you read it the first time?

No I hadn't. I think it shows what an intelligent and gifted cadet officer he (Prince Charles, the author. -Ed) was. He later became a Spaatz cadet and is presently an officer in the Navy. He was one of the finest cadet officers I ever served with, and I can't really argue with anything he wrote. Other cadets might have put in their opinions of what was going on, but his letter seems to stick to what he KNEW. That was PC all over. You might say he was the consummate cadet officer.

I wish I had known how my involvement with the DIF (Devil's Island Flight. -Ed) had changed people's perceptions of me. As you might have gathered from the stuff I wrote, I didn't have a clue about how I was perceived. I thought everyone understood that I was dedicated to Group XII and would do whatever was asked of me.

That's why I was so stunned when I was assigned to the position of supply sergeant in 1982. I was devastated. I hadn't seen it coming at all. I had done everything that the colonel and my leaders had asked of me, including joining the DIF, and all of a sudden I was being given a [crummy] assignment. They later reassigned me, but only after I had to beg for a new position. I was angry for a long time over that, but looking back, I can see how my appearance and my former unit could have easily given people the wrong impression of me. Heck, in the field I looked more like an extra from "Apocalypse Now" than a cadet! (Laughs)

You say that you feel DI was good for you. Would you say that was true of everyone who attended?

It would depend on what year they attended. Like most CAP activities, DI changed over the years. I would say that DI was very good for anyone who attended before 1982. Most of the students in 1982 had a great time and learned a lot, but it was a negative experience for many on staff.

Would you say it was true for the majority of those who attended?

Definitely. I have yet to run into anyone who graduated DI who said it was a bad thing in their life. We DID have a few people go AWOL, but those individuals had problems long before they got up on the Island. Since we took the phrase "You are only as fast as your slowest man" to it's most extreme meaning, how could someone have a negative experience? ANYONE could belong if they were willing to put out everything they had and a little more. This is very different than the "If you can't hack it, then pack it" attitude I see at many cadet activities today. It seems like people think that eliminating the weak or slow is a function of cadet activities. I just don't understand that.

What do you think could have been done differently to have given DI a better chance to benefit the greatest number of attendees?

I guess we could have stopped in 1981 (grin). Seriously, even in 1982, the attendees overall had a very positive experience from the school. While it was clearly not the school it had been in previous years, it was still far superior to any other wing activity at the time. This shows you how great it was. Even in our worst year, the students found it to be a defining moment in their cadet "lives". In every year, DI was challenging, fun, hard, and had enough directed rebellion to satisfy any teenager's palate. Most said they had thought encampment was important until they had attended DI. Then encampment paled in comparison.

You have to remember that until 1982, DI was not attended by just anyone. Cadets were screened long before they saw that ferry. Anyone with physical problems, or who just didn't have the attitude that was required by this activity, simply weren't allowed to come up. Had the activity been open to every cadet, we would have had many who had bad experiences simply because they were not a good fit for this kind of activity. Drummond Island was not encampment. It wasn't for everyone.

I know that sounds like a contradiction to the whole "Slowest Man" thing, but it really isn't. Just because you couldn't go to DI didn't mean you weren't a full member of Group XII. Often, the rangers were the ones who were the biggest defenders of the cadets wearing green caps. It was the cadet officers who had not attended DI that would abuse the weaker or slower cadets. DI rangers didn't do that kind of thing (some of the '82 staff being an exception, but several of them weren't even DI graduates!)

Did you ever see any cliquishness forming within Group XII?

Group XII WAS the clique. As far as we were concerned, there was Group XII, and there was everyone else. This was both good and bad. It was good because we had extremely good Esprit de corps. EVERYONE was included, even if they were disliked. Being a bit shy and a loner, I had almost no one in the Group whom I could have honestly called a friend at the time, but I had dozens of guys who would have risked their lives to protect me. I would have done the same for them. We were THAT close, even though we weren't always friends. Comrades would be a better description of us.

The whole Group XII clique thing was bad because our extreme esprit was the seed of our downfall. As soon as the Colonel died, everyone we had pissed off came crashing down on our heads. The group was merged with another, and our seniors and cadet leadership were systematically purged. The very few seniors who survived were the ones who were able to distance themselves from the great things that Group XII had accomplished (None of them were involved with DI). I was the only cadet in the "inner circle" to survive the purges, but only because I made sure I never broke any regulations and remained respectful even as I fought to prevent the inevitable destruction of everything we had built. There were a couple of seniors who had looked for any excuse to get 2b me. They are no longer in CAP, but I am. :-)

Some of the other cadets came back after stints in the military or after college, but everything was gone by then. All but two of the squadrons were closed within 2 years. With openly hostile seniors at the squadron level, there was nothing I or anyone else could have done to preserve what we had built. The best we could do is try to pass on a few lessons to the newer cadets. I'm still doing that today in my own limited way.

If cliques weren't a problem within the group, what do you think you did at DI to prevent them?

What was beat into my head at DI was that rangers lead from the front and no one gets left behind. The whole point of DI was to bring Group XII together. At first, it was just a few cadets who would soon be cadet commanders. Their shared experiences led them to hold joint activities when they became cadet commanders. Later, almost every cadet in Group XII above element member had earned their beret. Meetings and squadron activities were often centered on getting everyone prepared for their DI screening process. We worked on preparing our cadets for DI like many units work on drill team.

Berets are always a hot topic in our Forums. What was the DI/Group XII policy on berets? Based on most of the photographs we've turned up, it looks like only cadre wore them, but the Death Notice letter implies that any graduate could wear them at any time. Any comment on that?

I've read some of the discussions on CadetStuff about berets and such. In the military, people wear the beret of their unit. In an odd sort of way, DI and Group XII were like that. The beret was not just the symbol of graduating DI, it was a symbol of leadership in our Group. The ultimate goal was to have everyone in Group XII earn the beret. Eventually (by 1985 or so), we would have gotten to the point where we had trained everyone except the cadets who had joined since the last school and the few people with physical problems. My thoughts on this were to have everyone wear the beret and only graduates would wear the flash (like the do in special forces units). We never got that far though.

Incidentally, all this preparation for DI made Group XII one hell of a source for ground teams. We had cadet ground team members who could lead teams without any senior leadership. As far as we were concerned, the seniors were there just to make it legal. We certainly didn't expect them to provide leadership or expertise. Although we worked very hard to be respectful, we always assumed the seniors would be zeros. We were sometimes pleasantly surprised with them, but we were never disappointed.

Any dreams or nightmares about DI?

No on both counts. Drummond Island itself is seldom in my thoughts unless I am seeking an example for my cadets. That is not to say it doesn't still affect me. The things I learned on Drummond Island are intertwined with everything I do even now, 20 years later. They are integral to my personality.

I can't imagine having a nightmare about DI. I was not abused, I was not left out, and I learned more in my first two weeks there than I did in my first 3 years in CAP. The only negative experiences I had there were staff disputes after I had graduated and had moved up the chain of command. Internecine warfare is a part of any organization, so it's certainly nothing to lose sleep over.

A few years ago, my cadet commander and first sergeant saw an opportunity to quit on mile 27 of a 31 mile unit march (we were marching across our home county as a morale thing). We were near the first sergeant's home, and the temptation to quit seemed to overwhelm them. They started giving me this cock and bull story about how one of the airmen was really hurting. They knew I had twisted my knee on the river crossing about 10 miles back and that I was in a lot of pain. They figured if they gave me an excuse, I would call an end to the activity.

Well, they hadn't been on the "Death March". Here we had a bright sunny day, radios, plenty of water, lots of food, and even senior support (not just me, but also some seniors driving in a car who resupplied us with water). There was no way I was giving up so close to our goal. I simply walked over to the airman in question and took all of his canned food and blanket. I then dropped the cans down my shirt, placed the blanket on my ruck, and said "Let's go Airman". The cadet captain sounded shocked when she said something like "You aren't going to carry all his stuff are you?" Thinking of Eric the Terrible (Alpha commander in 1980) and his three sets of gear, I simply turned and said "Well I'm certainly not going to leave him behind." As I limped away, the confused airman fell in beside me, and we left that cadet captain and first sergeant in our dust. I never gave them the order to fall in, but they had no choice but to follow us.

They hadn't thought they could go on. They hadn't thought I would go on with my injury. They THOUGHT they had a way of manipulating me. They were wrong. By simply leading from the front as I had been taught on DI, I was able to teach the two of them something about leadership and about the false limitations we set on ourselves.

That cadet captain became an Army intelligence officer and the first sergeant became an Army Ranger in the 2nd Ranger Battalion. I've had a lot of my cadets enter the hardest units in our military (SEALS, Rangers, Marine FAST, etc...), and I used to be surprised when they would come back to me and say things like "You got me through SEAL training, Sir" or "I want to thank you for my ranger tab, Sir". While it is still very humbling hearing these words coming from people doing the real deal in the military, I think I finally figured out why they felt I had something to do with their accomplishments. As Drummond Island had done for me, I had been able to give them that little mental edge that is necessary to do great things. I had shown them that ANYTHING is possible. You just have to keep trying.

I don't dream of being on the Island. Frankly, I wouldn't want to do it again. I am older and wiser now. However, I got that way by experience, and DI was one of the three defining experiences in my life.